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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:05 am 
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First, I want to say a big "thank you" to the developer (Ivo?)! I was FORCED into adopting Windows 8; in my situation, it was not only due to the upcoming sunset of support for XP, but also due to the fact that my wife's machine got hit by a nasty Rootkit (ZeroAccess), and was not able to be sufficiently restored to trust it again. We have both been using Win XP SP3 since around 2000, and even retained the "classic" Windows look rather than the XP "look." When my wife's machine crashed (while she was away on business, of course!), I went to our trusty Costco and picked up two nicely-outfitted HP ENVY machines with Win 8 installed.

So you can imagine my disgust when I set eyes on Win 8! All the colors were very washed-out looking, including the color schemes for all of the icons; and where the hell was the Start menu? For that matter, how were you supposed to CLOSE a "metro" app??!!?? The default theme (and many others) allowed things like light-blue text on a slightly-darker-blue background. Unreadable! Apparently, this is Microsoft’s idea of a nifty “new” user interface. Yeckkk! :evil: I was greatly reassured to find that that there were a LOT of other people who felt the same way (so I'm not NECESSARILY a dinosaur...)

Classic Shell saved me from SHOOTING both machines and THEN returning them to Costco! (Guns don't kill computers, _people_ kill computers...) Installing that gave us a set of tools we could work with, and an environment that was reasonably familiar.

I just finished (a week ago) setting up my wife's machine and migrating all her data to it, just in time for her to take off again for a couple months! The one issue I was NOT able to resolve were the crappy "system colors" (for lack of a better term. Maybe part of my problem is not knowing what to _call_ this problem!) I spent quite a bit of time trying to modify one of the standard Win 8 themes, but I could never find a set of colors that had decent contrast but still colored all the scroll bars, buttons etc. properly. Win 8 provides some "high contrast" themes; but all of these colored in some buttons or bars with the foreground and background colors being the same (i.e. just a block of some color, no button.) Nice work, Microsoft!

I even went into the Color Palette, trying to juice up the colors. It was immediately apparent that even the palette of COLORS was somehow washed-out. If the colors aren't there in the Palette, I can understand why everything else looks so bland and washed-out (compared to Win XP.)

I'm not a TOTAL dummy with computers, but this is where I start to get in over my head (and I'm hoping someone here can help me understand.) It's my understanding that a "theme" can include its own color palette, icon files, line widths, etc. If this is the case, then it seems that it should be _trivial_ for someone who knows what they're doing to come up with a theme that duplicates the look of XP colors (and possibly gives one better tools to adjust the UI than the miserable, limited choices that MS provides in Win 8.) Yet, I have been _completely unable_ to locate any sort of decent-looking theme! Since restoring the look of "classic" Windows was the goal of Classic Shell, I thought I might find some resonance and understanding of the problem here. (If Classic Shell _had_ such a theme available, I would gladly pay $10 or $20 for it!!)

I did find some discussions of things like UIThemepatcher that purported to patch some Win 8 system files, in order to allow you to use actual theme files from Windows 7 or earlier. For one thing, I found that some of these utilities had not been maintained, and were not actually intended to work on Win 8. Secondarily, patching Windows system files seems a bit heavy-handed - it sounds similar to something Malware would do! I could see it causing problems down the road (and indeed, some users had reported problems NOT so far down the road!) And again, it didn't seem to me to be necessary...

THEN, I started reading about "skins", and things like Stardock and Start8, and that's about when I had to pack it in and get my wife's system out the door. I'm hoping to migrate _my_ computer over to the new one some time this week, and would like to figure out this question.

I _know_ I'm not alone in perceiving this problem! There are too many posts on the 'net complaining about the same thing. And if you put a Win XP machine side-by-side with an out-of-the-box Win 8 setup, the difference hits you from across the room. The same people who want Classic Shell would also want to fix this "color/look" problem, for all the same reasons. However, I haven’t been able to find anyone who had found a solution to the problem.

(1) Is my understanding correct of what a “theme” can do?

(2) Am I looking for a “theme”, or do I need to be looking for a “skin” (or some _other_ entity, as yet unknown to me…)

(3) Am I just thick, and there is some theme available that everybody else except _me_ has found?? :D


I would greatly appreciate any instruction, links, etc. that anyone can offer.

Thanks,
George



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:16 am 
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1) Yes
2) Yes, theme
3) You can look on the deviantart website. There are tons of themes there, although most are probably for Windows 7. If someone knows how to change the Windows 8 look, it will be the folks over there.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Thanks, Ivo! I just ***knew*** that you would know the right direction to pursue!

George


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:25 pm 
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@cheebie, you can download UxStyle (http://uxstyle.com/) which will enable you to use third party visual styles from Deviantart to change the look of Windows 8.

Disclaimer: Any third party software recommendation is only for your convenience. Classic Shell does not bear any responsibility for that app.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:53 am 
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GauravK wrote:
@cheebie, you can download UxStyle (http://uxstyle.com/) which will enable you to use third party visual styles from Deviantart to change the look of Windows 8.

Disclaimer: Any third party software recommendation is only for your convenience. Classic Shell does not bear any responsibility for that app.

Hey GauravK, Is there any advantage/difference in using that programs compared to Universal Theme Patcher. Which is the program I use to patch my third party themes?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:14 am 
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I haven't checked out other theme patchers because they all mostly patch the Windows theming engine DLL on the disk, which requires taking ownership of that DLL and admin permissions. This reduces security as that DLL is protected by Windows Resource Protection. And even then, updates to Windows can restore the original unpatched DLL, then the modded theme or visual style will stop working or the system can become unstable.

UxStyle does in-memory patching which is very hard to do because it requires writing a kernel mode driver which patches multiple bytes of the DLL plus it has added logic to continue working even if few bytes in the DLL change (due to updates or service packs). It "just works", you just install it and forget about it, and then just apply the theme.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:30 am 
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I might switch to UxStyle. But I do feel that the Theme Patcher just works and it doesn't run any background tasks. It just patches.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:33 pm 
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Hi all,

Thanks for this discussion!

GauravK, thank you for the reference to UIStyle. This is one of the programs I looked at. However, I had the same question as Satuim, who helped me out by asking my question for me! :D

And then thanks AGAIN to Gaurav, for your thorough explanation on this point! I had mentioned UI Theme Patcher in my original post. After doing some searching on my (XP)machine today, I found that the utility I used (or tried to) was actually called "UltraUIThemePatcher." I was directed to use this utility by one of the Themes on the DeviantArt site: (http://carborunda.deviantart.com/art/Snowy-v3-0-for-Windows-8-363931948). UltraUIThemePatcher did NOT run properly. I learned that it had not (at that point) been updated to run on the current version of Windows 8. That was the point where I started digging a little deeper, and learned that UltraUIThemePatcher was modifying System files. I heard the same thing said about other UI-modifying utilities, including UIStyle! I decided I wanted nothing to do with things that would patch system files, for the reasons Gaurav discussed. Thank you for explaining it so well, Gaurav; and given your explanation, I would consider trying UIStyle.

A couple questions:
(1) I understand that it is necessary to install UIStyle if I want to use Themes from an older version of Windows (say, the "Luna" theme, or perhaps the "Windows Classic" theme that I like so much on my current computer.) Is it NECESSARY to install UIStyle in order to use _any_ of the Themes from DeviantArt? (Apparently, at least _one_ theme recommends a different utility...)

(2) Ivo answered above that my understanding of themes was correct, that "... a "theme" can include its own color palette, icon files, line widths, etc. " (I took it for granted that he understood that my question applied to Windows 8, and Windows 8 Themes.) If a standard Win 8 theme can control all this information, _why_ would it be _necessary_ to employ an external "patcher" (even one like UIStyle?) I know that Win 8 does not make it EASY to access all the details which would restore a "Windows Classic" look instead of the abominable standard Win 8 Themes; my question was "why hasn't some brilliant programmer (like Ivo!!) figured out how to dig in to the new Win 8 themes and make the needed changes?" (or perhaps even developed a _utility_ to allow users the same access to themes as they did in XP?)

Gaurav, the floor is yours...:D

cheebie (AKA George)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:33 pm 
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The correct word for these mods that change the look of the OS using bitmapped graphical elements is 'visual styles'. They were introduced with Windows XP. Theme or themepack technically is just a bunch of settings that applies a set of visual styles and other elements like wallpaper, sounds, mouse pointers etc. But everyone in the Windows community uses the word "theme" in place of "visual styles" (probably because in pre-Windows XP era, there were only themes, no visual styles).


Microsoft locked the Windows theming engine by default so that only theme DLLs which are digitally signed by Microsoft can be used. Third party visual styles are not signed. What UxStyle enables by doing some extremely clever in-memory patching is the use of these unsigned themes. It runs as a service, as long as that service is running, you can use unsigned visual styles. Of course, those styles that you download from sites like Deviantart.com have to be designed for a specific version of Windows. Meaning a style that *looks* like XP can be for Windows 7 and/or Windows 8. Make sure you get the right version. Styles for Windows 7 won't work for Windows 8. Note that UxStyle is not yet released for Windows 8.1. For 64-bit versions of Windows, the kernel mode driver must again be signed and that requires purchasing a not-so-cheap code signing certificate. UxStyle's developer, Rafael Rivera, according to its website, plans to update it soon to work with Windows 8.1.

There is also a paid app called Windows Style Builder (http://vistastylebuilder.com/windows7.html) developed by Andreas Verhoeven that lets advanced users visually create these visual styles - edit the theme's graphical elements etc. Of course, you can also use a free tool like Resource Hacker to edit .msstyles files if you know how.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:20 am 
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Quote:
For 64-bit versions of Windows, the kernel mode driver must again be signed and that requires purchasing a not-so-cheap code signing certificate.

Huh? Does that affect me?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:25 am 
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The developer of the app is required to sign the driver and pay for the certificate, not the end user.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Hi Gaurav,

This is THE BEST explanation of what happened to Win 8 themes that I have EVER SEEN!! (Maybe I just didn't search far enough; but I spent two to four hours searching!) I nominate this for inclusion in the Classic Shell FAQ (since, IMHO, the Win 8 "visual style" is almost as much of a monstrosity as the part of the UI that is fixed by Classic Shell!)

Notwithstanding, I do have a couple questions/clarifications/comments:

GauravK wrote:
Microsoft locked the Windows theming engine by default so that only theme DLLs which are digitally signed by Microsoft can be used... that requires purchasing a not-so-cheap code signing certificate.

Why does THAT not surprise me? :evil: Microsoft can lock people into their "new and improved" color scheme, or charge people a ransom to be able to change it!


GauravK wrote:
Third party visual styles are not signed. What UxStyle enables by doing some extremely clever in-memory patching is the use of these unsigned themes. It runs as a service, as long as that service is running, you can use unsigned visual styles.


Got it (I think.) When the "style engine" loads, it has the proper MS digital signature; so MS allows it to load. Once it's in memory, another application (e.g. UXStyle) can change the bytes loaded in memory so that it allows unsigned themes to load, and Windows will never catch it. (Let's hope Rafael never decides to apply his talents to the design of Malware!! :) )



GauravK wrote:
Note that UxStyle is not yet released for Windows 8.1. For 64-bit versions of Windows, the kernel mode driver must again be signed and that requires purchasing a not-so-cheap code signing certificate. UxStyle's developer, Rafael Rivera, according to its website, plans to update it soon to work with Windows 8.1.

OK, I'm a little confused here. I have Win 8.0 (and I'm not planning to upgrade it to 8.1 until LOTS of other people have debugged it!) However, my version of Win 8 is definitely a "64-bit version." Does that mean that the current version of UXStyle will not work properly with my Win 8? (I noticed on the www.uxstyle.com site that the button to download the Win 8 version is labeled with the text: "Download for Window 8 (experimental)" ...)

GauravK wrote:
There is also a paid app called Windows Style Builder (http://vistastylebuilder.com/windows7.html) developed by Andreas Verhoeven that lets advanced users visually create these visual styles - edit the theme's graphical elements etc. Of course, you can also use a free tool like Resource Hacker to edit .msstyles files if you know how.


This looks like an interesting alternative; however, I'm not necessarily THAT interested in doing surgery on the Win 8 themes, if there is a reasonable (and free) way to just use a .theme file from a previous version of Windows. (I mean, learning is ALWAYS valuable; but I got other stuff to do right now!)

Thanks again for all your great explanations, Gaurav,
cheebie


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Well visual styles and Classic Shell are unrelated so it doesn't make sense to include this in the FAQ. :) MS requires signed visual styles ever since XP, so this hasn't changed for Windows 8. What *has* changed though is the classic theme which did not use visual styles. It followed system colors which the user could customize easily from Advanced Appearance control panel in Windows XP, Vista, 7. Unfortunately, the classic theme in Windows 7/Vista didn't support DWM, so the fun of using those OSes with Aero disabled was lost anyways if the Classic theme was used (and no full GDI acceleration either like XP had means performance, at least perceived smoothness and performance was laggy). MS has removed the Classic theme entirely in Windows 8. This is where they could have done better. In Windows 8, they updated the rest of the themes (the high contrast ones, that didn't work with DWM in Windows 7) to now work with Aero+DWM on. DWM in fact can't be turned off in Windows 8. But they chose to remove the Classic theme as well as the Advanced Appearance control panel, they could have created a Classic looking theme with DWM on as well.

I have had no trouble using UxStyle on Windows 8 64-bit. 8.1 is a different story where it will have to be updated.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:01 am 
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This is where I really praise Linux and other Open source OS's that don't lock down there users.

Windows 8 sounds really annoying.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Hi Gaurav,

Well, it's very clear that you really, REALLY know your stuff when it comes to Windows UI! Thank you for taking the time to post here and answer my questions. However, you do (on occasion) "leave me in the dust!" So once again, I could use a few clarifications...

GauravK wrote:
Well visual styles and Classic Shell are unrelated so it doesn't make sense to include this in the FAQ. :)

I take your point here, Gaurav! However, from my very first post, I have been trying to make the point that ***PHILOSOPHICALLY***, getting the "Classic" look back in terms of colors COULD be related to the other work done in Classic Shell:
cheebie wrote:
"Since restoring the look of "classic" Windows was the goal of Classic Shell, I thought I might find some resonance and understanding of the problem here. (If Classic Shell _had_ such a theme available, I would gladly pay $10 or $20 for it!!)"

But I digress. Certainly, it's up to you and Ivo to decide where to draw the line. I'm just saying that from a USER'S standpoint, the two matters ARE related! :D



GauravK wrote:
MS requires signed visual styles ever since XP, so this hasn't changed for Windows 8. What *has* changed though is the classic theme which did not use visual styles. It followed system colors which the user could customize easily from Advanced Appearance control panel in Windows XP, Vista, 7.

THAT explains my frustration with the "theme editing" tools in Win 8! At LAST, an answer! :mrgreen:

I should also mention here that I have never used Vista or Win 7. That helps to explain why some of these things are such a shock for me (although apparently, Win 8 is now taking away some of the things it instituted in Vista/7! Maybe I won't know what I'm missing? For instance: from the sounds of it, I don't think I'll miss Aero Glass!)



GauravK wrote:
Unfortunately, the classic theme in Windows 7/Vista didn't support DWM, so the fun of using those OSes with Aero disabled was lost anyways if the Classic theme was used (and no full GDI acceleration either like XP had means performance, at least perceived smoothness and performance was laggy). MS has removed the Classic theme entirely in Windows 8. This is where they could have done better. In Windows 8, they updated the rest of the themes (the high contrast ones, that didn't work with DWM in Windows 7) to now work with Aero+DWM on. DWM in fact can't be turned off in Windows 8. But they chose to remove the Classic theme as well as the Advanced Appearance control panel, they could have created a Classic looking theme with DWM on as well.

For those of you out there (like me) who do NOT know as much about UI issues as Gaurav does, there is an awesome article on Wikipedia that delves into the significance of both Aero and (to a lesser extent) DWM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Aero

So, Gaurav, a few questions:
(1) When you say "DWM in fact can't be turned off in Windows 8", what ramifications does that have for someone who wants to run the "Windows Classic" theme (from XP) in Win 8? Will it run, but simply not comply with DWM? Does applying UxStyle cause these themes to comply with DWM, or simply make it so that Win 8 doesn't CARE that they're not DWM-compliant?

(2) If I understand you correctly, the fact that a given theme is not compliant with DWM is what causes the perceived loss of performance (compared to another theme on the same machine that _IS_ DWM-compliant.) Of course, if UxStyle covers the DWM-compliance issue (as I mentioned above), this is no longer an issue. However, in the event that it does NOT, I'm wondering how much of a performance hit I'll see? I also have to note here that my present computer is a single-processor model circa 2005, with an Intel onboard graphics card and half a gig of RAM; and the new machine is a 4th-gen Intel I7 quad-processor with 12 gigs of RAM. I wonder if I would even NOTICE any "hampered" graphics performance?? :D

(3) It's also my understanding (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2404647,00.asp) that while DWM is permanently turned _ON_ in Win 8, Aero (or at least Aero Glass) is permanently turned _OFF_. Since I don't think I would have liked any of the "features" added by Aero Glass, I don't think I will miss this (as I said above.) Does the absence of Aero Glass have any performance ramifications for me?

(4) If all else fails: I would assume that hacking my way to an acceptable theme using Windows Style Builder or Resource Hacker would result in my having a theme that looked like the Windows Classic theme, but would be DWM-compliant (and thus not have any performance issues.) Is that correct?



GauravK wrote:
I have had no trouble using UxStyle on Windows 8 64-bit. 8.1 is a different story where it will have to be updated.

Good to know. Are you in communication with the developer (Rafael Rivera), such that you have any information on when the _official_ status of the Win 8.0 version will change from "experimental" to "ready for Prime Time" (or whatever)? The current Win 8 version seems to be nearly a year old...

Thanks,
cheebie


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:19 pm 
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1) Visual styles are not compatible across Windows versions! You can't just use 'Windows Classic' theme from XP in Windows 8. It won't even apply. You will have to find a visual style specifically for Windows 8. You can use this somewhat Classic-looking style that someone made for Windows 8: http://kizo2703.deviantart.com/art/Wind ... -325642288 but it's not decent-looking because even the areas that are supposed to be white are gray. It looks like it's a color modification of the high contrast themes so that one won't even require UxStyle.

2) All Windows 8 themes are already DWM compatible. There is no question of graphics performance, perceived or otherwise in Windows 8. In Vista it was bcoz only when DWM was off, it used GDI to render everything and GDI wasn't even hardware accelerated like XP. In Windows 7, some commonly used GDI functions are accelerated but with DWM off, you still lose the smoothness (and performance too according to some 2D graphics benchmarks done by sites like Tom's Hardware and Passmark).

3) No

4) Yes. That's the theme I linked to above. You can modify it further.

I have no relation to UxStyle and can't comment on when it will be updated.

Edit: I attached to this post a slightly modded "Classic" theme for Windows 8 that makes some gray areas white. You don't even require UxStyle for it.


Attachments:
Classic Grey.zip [1.39 KiB]
Downloaded 313 times

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Thank you for your reply, Gaurav. Unfortunately, I think it raised as many questions for me as it answered! :D

I have done GOBS of research since you answered on Wednesday, to try to fill in the gaps in my understanding of this issue; and I've learned a lot. However, I'm not "there" yet. I think perhaps it would be best if I proceed with getting my Win 8 machine online and configured, and check out the visual style which you so kindly supplied. Having that, and having some further research, perhaps I can either (a) answer my own questions or (b) pose some better-informed (if not more intelligent!) ones. So it will probably be several days until I post here again.

Thanks,
cheebie


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