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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:50 am 
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Numerous users wrote:

Please? :3

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:16 am 
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bump

...or am I the only one who wants this? .-.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:41 am 
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Figured this was the one u meant :P and yea quite a few users have requested it. IVO's official response is that there is no API to work with live tiles. IE if he were to do it, the tiles wouldn't be animated, and it would still be ALOT of work, to enable features like drag/drop.
There have been several request to allow for 'links' on 'emblems' which could match this look, but would hardly be customizable (unless users knew how to modify a .skin)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:24 am 
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Jcee wrote:
Figured this was the one u meant :P and yea quite a few users have requested it. IVO's official response is that there is no API to work with live tiles. IE if he were to do it, the tiles wouldn't be animated, and it would still be ALOT of work, to enable features like drag/drop.

I know there's no official API, and in fact I would hope it would be a 3rd-party recreation of the features - that way we could have skinnable tiles :OD


Jcee wrote:
There have been several request to allow for 'links' on 'emblems' which could match this look, but would hardly be customizable (unless users knew how to modify a .skin)

Yeah. Kinda kills the workflow, and also how do you do keyboard control for emblems? Or jump lists? Or drag and drop? .-.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:11 am 
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It can't be a 3rd-party recreation of the features - the apps provide their live data in a way that only Windows understands, and Windows must in turn send that information to the live tile. I suspect the data will be extremely hard to get, if at all possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:26 am 
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Ivo wrote:
It can't be a 3rd-party recreation of the features - the apps provide their live data in a way that only Windows understands, and Windows must in turn send that information to the live tile. I suspect the data will be extremely hard to get, if at all possible.

Tbh I'd assumed you'd probably just omit the "live" aspect of tiles completely for such reasons... .-.


Also I know that the folks behind Customatic were able to grab tiles from the Windows 10 Start Menu and display them on the desktop or something...is that of any use?

...tbh I don't really know what I'm talking about, all I know is I want that menu even if the Tiles can't be live. I might be alone in that, but my thinking is that tiles can be good for keyboard use, since when you've selected a tile, you can have 4 other tiles adjacent to the selected tile (and therefore they can be selected with a single keypress), unlike the limit of 2 items present in the list-style programs menus of all existing menu types. Then again, I don't use any Metro apps which use Live information on their Tiles, so maybe I just don't get it... ._____.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:49 am 
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If your list-style menu spans multiple columns, you can use Ctrl+left and Ctrl+right arrows keys to move to the same row on the next column. Also, the list-style menu supports keyboard accelerators so you can select an item by pressing its beginning letter. You can also use Home/End.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:00 am 
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I think adding Large icons in the menu in a different left-most column dedicated to pinned items might be a good idea. But I wouldn't get rid of text labels at any icon size - small or large. Tiles are just square Metro icons, although some apps display graphical images. Live Tiles on the other hand - forget them. :lol:

Also the column for pinned large icons needs to be the left most because jumplists and submenus open to the right. Compatibility with existing skins needs to be maintained and I wouldn't want any more core Start menu styles added either - Classic, Classic with two columns and Windows 7 style are more than enough for me. The expanded pinning area can be an optional addition to these 3 styles.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Gaurav wrote:
If your list-style menu spans multiple columns, you can use Ctrl+left and Ctrl+right arrows keys to move to the same row on the next column. Also, the list-style menu supports keyboard accelerators so you can select an item by pressing its beginning letter. You can also use Home/End.

...am I missing something here? Is there some obstacle in carrying that over to tiles? (Also how do you multiple columns in Win7 Style? .-. )

Gaurav wrote:
I think adding Large icons in the menu in a different left-most column dedicated to pinned items might be a good idea. But I wouldn't get rid of text labels at any icon size - small or large. Tiles are just square Metro icons, although some apps display graphical images. Live Tiles on the other hand - forget them.

...LEFT column? .-.

Guarav wrote:
Also the column for pinned large icons needs to be the left most because jumplists and submenus open to the right.


C:

Guarav wrote:
Compatibility with existing skins needs to be maintained

...how? And why? .-.

Guarav wrote:
I wouldn't want any more core Start menu styles added either - Classic, Classic with two columns and Windows 7 style are more than enough for me. The expanded pinning area can be an optional addition to these 3 styles.


I had thought a new Start Menu Style would've been ideal... .-.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Ideal would be removal of the start menu styles tab, with all features intertwined.. and a 'themes' tab that loads pre-sets(xmls) based on various operating systems...

What about adding a new menu-item [Tiles Box] that reserves space, to drag shortcuts in-to

It would dynamically adjust to its contents, and the column its in would just stretch as it already does with larger items


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:43 pm 
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Uh

question

are we still talking about a menu style in the form of the menu in Windows Technical Preview builds 9841 - 9879, or are we now just talking about tiles in general...? 'cause for me, it's more than just the tiles that make the menu... .-.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:25 pm 
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I was talking about tiles in general.
Yes there is more to that specific menu, but having tiles is the primary obstacle in obtaining any windows 8-10 style.. Aside from tiles, and the location of the power button, what else is there that classic shell can't already do? (and It can actually do the start button, by replacing the user picture frame, and giving it a custom link)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:53 pm 
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Jcee wrote:
I was talking about tiles in general.

D:

Jcee wrote:
Yes there is more to that specific menu, but having tiles is the primary obstacle in obtaining any windows 8-10 style...

Fair enough ._.


Jcee wrote:
Aside from tiles, and the location of the power button, what else is there that classic shell can't already do?

Having the "recent items" and "folders" lists both on the left? .-.


Jcee wrote:
(and It can actually do the start button, by replacing the user picture frame, and giving it a custom link)

...what?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:39 pm 
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the user picture can have a link to any app correct? you can place the user picture anywhere, or any size you want correct? so you could make the user picture 1 pixel, and the picture frame to look like a shutdown button.. with a link to the shutdown dialog...

In the classic/2 column style recent items and folders can both be on the left already...
Im guessing the menu you are referring to has cascading left column though?

Either way, we should not be developing for specific styles, but rather a more powerful tool capable of re-creating those styles with ease...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:47 am 
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Jcee wrote:
the user picture can have a link to any app correct? you can place the user picture anywhere, or any size you want correct? so you could make the user picture 1 pixel, and the picture frame to look like a shutdown button.. with a link to the shutdown dialog...




Jcee wrote:
n the classic/2 column style recent items and folders can both be on the left already...
Im guessing the menu you are referring to has cascading left column though?

Yeah, its All Apps menu is like the Win7 All Programs menu.

Jcee wrote:
Either way, we should not be developing for specific styles, but rather a more powerful tool capable of re-creating those styles with ease...

Wait...w0t? O:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:58 am 
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adding features allow you to further customize a menu to your needs.
adding a new style (aside from being considerable work) locks you down with a specific feature-set and limited customization.

I like the look/feel of the windows 7 style Out of box; however, because it's not as customizable I always find myself going right back to classic with 2 columns. (though even the windows 7 style is more customizable than most of the competition :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:39 am 
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Jcee wrote:
adding features allow you to further customize a menu to your needs.

Well yeah, but that could get really hard to pull off...right? Not to mention that you kinda lose the core of the menu style...

Jcee wrote:
adding a new style (aside from being considerable work) locks you down with a specific feature-set and limited customization.

From what I can tell, this now-hypothetical new style could be made to work with .skin7 skins, but that would require the tiles to either not be skinnable at all, be skinnable independently of the rest of the menu, or use the right-column selectors IMO the last option is arguably the best in terms of end result, though I would imagine that it would still look rather strange in some cases, unless there were options flags akin to the existing TWO_COLUMNS flag, maybe add a new version of the skinning engine value to facilitate this and "hide" incompatible skins from the new style's skin list?

Jcee wrote:
I like the look/feel of the windows 7 style Out of box; however, because it's not as customizable I always find myself going right back to classic with 2 columns. (though even the windows 7 style is more customizable than most of the competition :)

I agree with the first part of that. Win7 Style has a great L&F. That's why the idea of extending it to facilitate Preview Menu-like features worries me - you don't get the L&F of the new Menu Style, only a few of its features tacked onto an existing style. But on the flipside, the two styles aren't really all that different - the only major changes are as follows:

-The pinned programs list is on the right and takes the form of tiles
-The folders list is now on the left, above the recent items list
-The shutdown button is at the top right corner of the left column
-The user name actually exists
-The user image is in the top left of the left column

Seems like a lot, but to me it doesn't seem like enough to break the idea of recycling the .skin7 format, so long as there's a flag akin to TWO_COLUMNS to change certain values depending on the current menu style.

Am I spewing nonsense or am I on to something...?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:58 pm 
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Yes adding complex features would be harder to incorporate than to fork into their own 'style' but because of customizability it would be better. and in the long run (with more features added) it would take longer.

look at new features since the 4.0 series.. most of them aren't related to the start menu itself. I suspect this is because fragmenting the program means Ivo now has to 'double code' (well a lot of copy, and paste, and more compatibility testing)

"That's why the idea of extending it to facilitate Preview Menu-like features worries me " Why would it worry you.. you can turn the features OFF and it would be the same as them not existing?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:10 pm 
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Jcee wrote:
Yes adding complex features would be harder to incorporate than to fork into their own 'style' but because of customizability it would be better. and in the long run (with more features added) it would take longer.

Alright, so there's that.

Jcee wrote:
look at new features since the 4.0 series.. most of them aren't related to the start menu itself. I suspect this is because fragmenting the program means Ivo now has to 'double code' (well a lot of copy, and paste, and more compatibility testing)

Uhhhh
Okay?

Jcee wrote:
Splitwirez wrote:
That's why the idea of extending it to facilitate Preview Menu-like features worries me

Why would it worry you.. you can turn the features OFF and it would be the same as them not existing?

The problem isn't turning them off, it's turning them on - you don't get a Preview-style menu, you get a Win7-style menu with preview features tacked on, which...isn't quite the same thing, especially since skins would (presumably) be unable to detect the difference.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:24 pm 
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your right.. if your goal is to 'perfectly' match a specific menu for whatever reason.. your not going to see it without a specific style. The issue here is.. If IVO were to choose any windows 10 style to match.. it would probably be the most popular one.. (which I'm not so sure your style is) so you would probably actually get closer to your style by having more customization, than a pre-defined style...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:09 pm 
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Jcee wrote:
your right.. if your goal is to 'perfectly' match a specific menu for whatever reason...your not going to see it without a specific style.

It is, and I have no idea why .-.

Jcee wrote:
The issue here is.. If IVO were to choose any windows 10 style to match.. it would probably be the most popular one.. (which I'm not so sure your style is)

Well idk about popular, but this style certainly seems to be the most positively-received, going on all the reading I've done on the matter...

Jcee wrote:
so you would probably actually get closer to your style by having more customization, than a pre-defined style...

Fair point ._.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:29 pm 
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I was thinking that emblems could fit into the 'customize start menu' section of the start menu settings. That would make it more user friendly than using resource hacker. I can make a concept art for it too. This would be like the way that Jcee's calculator menu is done which could also work for emblems too.

Another idea is a 3rd party .skin creator, but that is a lot more work.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:16 pm 
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emblems are just a 'patch' not a real solution. and they never will be directly for the end-user... They would be good for something like custom shutdown buttons, or whatnot, or really advanced skins modeled in a similar fashion as Microsoft's BOB.


Though with user-defined variables you can ALREADY develop a skin with easily changeable emblems... (those emblems just can't have links)

Firstly the features employed in the 'calc' menu I made aren't available in the windows 7 style. and it's rather complicated to set-up. though, a checkbox for 'force small icon' would allow you to use larger tiles (without making the icons for everything else in the menu obscenely large)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:44 am 
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Classic two column seems the best way to imitate Metro MS start menu.
Now that Ivo has put in code to have icon size different for each column,
one could set up column one with 24 pixel size, 48 pixel size in second column.
Make solid icon frames different size for column 1, and column 2. Column 2 frame to imitate the tile size.

If there are 8 emblems available, put 8 custom emblem tiles in the visible skin options,( all a specific size,and position),
for users to change out to what they like.
Emblem tile links, maybe in future?

Everything saved as xml file.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:41 pm 
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Oh, alright. For me, it seems that emblems are the only solution so far to create tiles for start menu's. Though I'm not sure what would have to happen for tiles to be fully supported.

User-defined variables? That sounds cool actually. Like if you were to give a start menu skin user defined options?

I didn't know that you couldn't make the calc menu with the windows 7 style. I think I do like the classic two-column style menu better, it has the two option boxes under 'customize start menu' where you can drag over new items and such.

I use 48px for the classic shell toolbar, so I don't mind this size. The solid icon frames idea is pretty good. Solid icon frames would work good for tiles with icons. Maybe not with ones with full images, like a picture of a meadow for your pictures folder 200px by 100px or something.

The visible emblem idea you & Jcee said would be good as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:28 pm 
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emblems aren't the 'only solution' you could just as easily create them on the far right side of the main bitmap, if you slice it up correctly ;P though neither of them provide anything to click on... they are just easier than that :P


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:34 pm 
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Alright, I don't think I could slice bitmaps like that any time soon xD
Yeah, links would be nice. Like if the solid icon frames or borders could have links, and you could have the content within those frames/borders clickable, or if the emblems, or sliced bitmaps themselves could be linkable/clickable to something.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:57 am 
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I can't stop thinking about this menu

help

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Apologies for the double-post, but seeing as that Star8 can resize the Start Screen to be more like a menu, couldn't CSM do the same here, and then just put it in a box on the right column?

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